Open Assumptions and Common Ground

[sirguessalot]

what can we assume?

what do we already assume?

what can we find to assume?

what are we willing to assume?

what does it hurt to momentarily and perhaps playfully assume a thing, in a dialogue on a forum?

can we assume that this might be a highly valuable place to start in order for our doctrinal dialogues are to be more fruitful?

(rather than often starting and often sticking with what divides?)

i mean, if no one can (or will) presume the same thing/s which I might hold as the deepest, highest, most fundamental truth,

how can i expect to relate, unless i make it my business to find a more common ground?

for the sake of discussion, might it help if I was to (without compromising my deepest truth)

momentarily seek the most common assumptions from which to grow the relationship from there?

rather than simply put the burden of my assumptions on others?

is my own faith already so pure and holy that i cannot break off a piece of myself and offer it in the temple of God?

is my own reality already so solid and unbreakable that i wouldn't dare take a swing at it and put it to yet another test?

?

what can we assume?

can we each assume that I AM?

or that WE simply ARE?

and that we are IN THIS together?

and all of this is somehow truer NOW than ever?

can we assume that all these are somehow true as true can be

even if we still don't understand exactly why?

(all this seems kinda obvious, i know

but the Kid and his teachers and his students seemed to think these are important places to start

just as the skeptics seem to go straight for the simplest answers first)

and so, what other assumptions can we find that might help the various topics of conversation going on around here?

especially those that always seem stuck

are we willing to find our most common assumptions?

btw-does anyone think all this is a bad idea?

if so, i am curious as to why?

[sirguessalot]

some examples come to mind...

can we assume that God being a literal male father that lives in a place seperate from us is a figure of speech, and not literally true?

because if we cannot assume such a thing in conversation, how do we hope to fruitfully discuss the nature of God to our mutual enlightening?

or, can we assume that any one word we use may have different meanings or applications or connotations when used by another?

and that to have clarity in this regard is paramount to a useful conversation?

or, even trickier perhaps: can we assume that faith and science both play different but vital roles in the overall development of human understanding?

because if we cannot assume such a thing in conversation, how do we expect to find common ground?

(not saying that we must assume these things, but simply asking if we hypothetically can, and if such assumpations might be useful as primers beforehand)

[CM]

i'm sure i have assumptions of my own

can you give us an example?

cuz i can't loose myself to insanity again

is it a putting yourself in anothers shoes thing?

or temporarily letting a person go

and try to take it from there

this would incude letting yourself go also, No?

feel free to use me if you so choose in an example you may give

or the kid as you so well put it...

[CM]

i think i've seen you do it with me :)-->

[sirguessalot]

ok, i'll repeat some of them i already posted:

can we each assume that I AM?

or that WE simply ARE?

and that we are IN THIS together?

and all of this is somehow truer NOW than ever?

can we assume that all these are somehow true as true can be, even if we still don't understand exactly why?

(also, there are those 3 examples...lol)

:P-->

the reason i think these are useful, is because a lot of seperation and harm caused between people stems from not making this assumption first.

"you are crazy"

"your faith is not real"

"your version of truth is a lie"

"only my kind of view is one of reality"

that sort of thing

these kinds of implications are contrary to the most obvious assumptions i started with

and often seem to serve to put us on the defensive and keep us there

and so we can imprison each other in this way

without knowing it

we often simply want to know that we simply ARE NOW

or that others know and verify that WE (and our faith) IS

can we assume that the Kid was right when he said that "I AM?"

and that this is not some magic mythical special nametag

but the most obvious place to start?

("holy ground," right here and now, if you will)

[CM]

yeah...i reckon i can go for that

i think so basic and simple, could be a fault

since we are there why try to get it there sort of thing

rather then beating a horse that won't die

a live and let live

seek don't make

let it roll easily

as the kid didn't, so should we not

perhaps i get it and can sleep better...

[def59]

quote:

Originally posted by sirguessalot:

some examples come to mind...

can we assume that God being a literal male father that lives in a place seperate from us is a figure of speech, and not literally true?

The Bible refers to God as a father and mother.

because if we cannot assume such a thing in conversation, how do we hope to fruitfully discuss the nature of God to our mutual enlightening?

I want to hear your premise first.

or, can we assume that any one word we use may have different meanings or applications or connotations when used by another?

and that to have clarity in this regard is paramount to a useful conversation?

Let's not assume, let's define our terms according to our understanding.

or, even trickier perhaps: can we assume that faith and science both play different but vital roles in the overall development of human understanding?

because if we cannot assume such a thing in conversation, how do we expect to find common ground?

It would be absurd to think that science doesn't play a role.

(not saying that we must assume these things, but simply asking if we hypothetically can, and if such assumpations might be useful as primers beforehand)

[CM]

so.....i'm thankful beyond words for the boost onto this horse. it's brought to the heights of joy i've never seen before yet have sunk to the depths of hell to the point of wanting to eat lead...

i grow tired of it..going so long trying to help people when it wasn't help at all but found myself wanting to drive them away from what i was in...and now i know a couple of things but know not how to help...this horse needs to pass...

so sleep escapes me at times and i dare not jump onto the next horse too soon cuz this one bucks so hard...not sure of the next...

common ground?

don't see the door so i break thru a window and find it was a wasted effort

[TheInvisibleDan]

I don't think there's any poster here

not possessed and driven by their

deepest convictions, to express it the best way they may.

I thought the other night,

"May you become as truly blessed in your conviction as I am in mine".

This seemed as good as place as any to integrate that corny little saying.

Much depends, I think, on how much of ones' deepest assumptions one is willing to actually share publicly. The alarming realization oft flashes to mind: wow, this internet thing truly puts anyone's thoughts on the stage for all the world to see. Like some public book of life, that millions on the planet may read. And here, people read your thoughts.

Experience all your warts and imperfections.

Dissect your faulty logic.

SO I may not integrate or relate well at times (lol). I may not even want to.

Does everyone here share those feelings to some extent? At least I imagine so.

Ultimately I believe - still - that we're all somehow here for a divine purpose, a divine drama -whatever it be - or perchance even a divine comedy - though one may not inhabit the role one expected or even wanted, whether in the past, the present, or the future.

Danny

[sirguessalot]

thanks for being so specific, def

lets see if i can play along and keep it going

can we assume that God being a literal male father that lives in a place seperate from us is a figure of speech, and not literally true?

The Bible refers to God as a father and mother.

and as a son, right? and a king, a cloud, a fire, of course, etc...

btw-can i assume then that you simply agree with the assumption as i stated it? no more, no less...for the moment?

...

because if we cannot assume such a thing in conversation, how do we hope to fruitfully discuss the nature of God to our mutual enlightening?

I want to hear your premise first.

But what bearing does the premise have on the assumption, if we have agreed that at least this is a true common ground?

(though it seems that you usefully added to the assumption something i can also agree to assume, and then in turn, i added to again.

though we are still just setting the table.

a question is, perhaps: would you back out of a shared assumption once a "challenging" premise is presented to it?

...

or, can we assume that any one word we use may have different meanings or applications or connotations when used by another?

and that to have clarity in this regard is paramount to a useful conversation?

Let's not assume, let's define our terms according to our understanding.

are you saying that you cannot just simply assume that we often each have different meanings for the same words?

because this is all i was asking if you could also assume.

and keep in mind, in this example, this assumption is NOT the actual conversation we are finding common ground for.

the definitions can and will and do come later as part of the process

...

or, even trickier perhaps: can we assume that faith and science both play different but vital roles in the overall development of human understanding?

because if we cannot assume such a thing in conversation, how do we expect to find common ground?

It would be absurd to think that science doesn't play a role.

ok, that was easier. because in these examples, the purpose of the assumption is to find common ground BEFORE we go on any further with our tongues.

[sirguessalot]

well said, Danny.

in so few words, too

damn well said.

and this:

quote:

Does everyone here share those feelings to some extent? At least I imagine so.

i, for one, can share that assumption...lol

which means we have found another piece of common ground

(btw...man o man are we gonna get sick of that A-word...lol)

[TheInvisibleDan]

quote:

Originally posted by sirguessalot:

i, for one, can share that assumption...lol

which means we have found another piece of common ground

Well I'm relieved that I'm not the only one who shares this assumption (lol).

Thank you, Sir Guess.

Danny

[CM]

I didn't think for me it would ever be possible to fellowship on this forum. But it seems this has happened, and more then once.

It is the most missed part of my life that was taken away from me. To commune with people. And possibly help them.

Learning new ways which are old ways to do both.