From everything that I have heard here at GSC the mental pressure and indoctrination was as thorough and as intense as anything that happened in TWI at the root locales among TWI staff.
Lives were twisted and broken across the board.
For anyone leaving RRF there is no telling how much help they may need to get on with their lives.
The thing about River Road Fellowship is that they have talked about going to South America in times past. And considering Barnard's foolish rantings about all the danger he is in more or less constantly he has already proved himself capable of moving everybody out of the country to escape the LIGHT. (LIGHT is my word for exposing him for what he really is.) And considering total control; over virtually every word that these poor people speak to each other I consider it POSSIBLE that they may be putting up a false front for the general public's consideration. When I was there this kind of false front for the public was as the food they ate in terms of their manner.
When RRF was discussing the possibility of us being in Brazil all I saw as possible consequences was our further isolation and our eventual destruction. JONESTOWN like events are IMO the most likely outcome of such an ill-considered adventure.
So I have learned even now to consider that these folks have been led into lying and hiding their intentions from everyone else on the outside. I will be watching at least.
Jeff, you mostly know how I feel about this rassin frassin bunch of smellholes.
Especially as it pertains to your heart and what it did to your marriage and relationship with your boy.
What I am proudest of is your tenacity to confront their nasty, to deal with their ugly, to stand up against their evil. Since our stories are different in their losses and yet similiar in their strengths, I'm comfortable in sharing your pain and celebrating your victory over what they would have be your downfall.
THE ONLY REASON THIS POST #13 IS HERE IS BECAUSE I BOTCHED MY ATTEMPT TO EDIT POST #10.
IN TERMS OF SEQUENCE PLEASE JUST PUT THIS POST WHERE POST #10 IS....SORRY.
This last weekend Randy R. and some others had a land sale at the property that we all used to call "the farm." I had been invited to a social gathering by some folks who had befriended me after RRF had kicked me out on the very same day as the public land auction and decided that I could go to the social gathering and go to the land sale to see what Randy was up to in selling all this private property.
I arrived in Finlayson at the same time the auction was suppose to start so I went straight to the farm. Mark Fr@ntcz^k was assigned to greet(yeah right, more like security!) folks up the driveway by the buildings. As I approached he started to raise his hand and I thought it would be a good idea to drive right by him and head to parking before he saw who I was and asked me to leave.
When I parked my vehicle and started heading toward the auction I was greeted by two old friends of mine, Mike and Steve. Mike ended up doing the talking.
Mike was the one who decided to keep his son against the advice and consent of V. Barnard. And the same one who had his butcher business shut down supposedly because of mad cow disease shortly after that. He is one of the men that I still believe has enough toughness and decency to stand up to Barnard but for now I am deeply disapointed in his trained inabitlity to even acknowledge the grief that I caught from V. Barnard's brother in law for simply telling Mike that I believed he made a good decision in keeping his son.
Steve is one of the men who allowed Barnard to have his oldest daughter join Barnard in a supposedly celibate marriage-like vow relationship. He looked even more oppressed than when I saw him last. The times that I remember Steve stand up for himself he was quickly put in his place by RRF leadership recalling one of his past mistakes. As things sit I do not think he has it in him any more to stand up for himself or his family, but I hope that time proves me wrong in my assessment.
I told Mike that I wanted to know what was going on and go to the sale too. He told me that my pointed questions made it sound like I was looking for trouble. I answered, "What trouble Mike? Where is the sale?" Then Mike told me where the sale was being held and I went there.
I entered what they used to use as a sheep milking barn and found they had transformed it into a very nice fellowship area. I found out later that some of the locals somewhat in-the-know as to RRF's methods call it "The Beating Room." The crowd that was there for the sale seemed very small and when I mentioned that to the auctioneer he said the crowd was smaller than he expected. When I mentioned my concern for him being paid he said that no matter how the auction went he had already been paid. Considering the financial strain and the forclosures that some among RRF have seen recently I can understand why the auctioneer seemed pleased that his pay for his day's labor was taken care of.
I shared with others that were there for the sale that I was in RRF when they bought the farm and can attest to all the labor that went into making the old farm buildings as nice as they are now. Some of them started asking me questions, which I was quick to answer. I shared about V.Barnard's false predictions of RRF being attacked by the government or the locals, the ten young women and in the words of one of the young women, their "married to the Christ in Victor" relationship, Barnard's many false predictions concerning the timing of Christ's return, and how they moved my wife and child out of my house shortly to be followed by Randy firing me from my job with a smile and a handshake. (bastard)
But in spite of Randy's nasty behavior towards me I had held out some hope that he was decent enough and tough enough to be standing up to Barnard now. One local friend had speculated that some thought that Randy and his wife were splitting up like me and my now ex-wife had. Considering how incredibly sold-out to Barnard Pam had been I thought he might be bugging out of RRF.
Randy and his wife are not splitting up. They are selling their assets and taking some folks from RRF with them and are moving to a new area to start a new group. Mike had assured me that those that were leaving with Randy were doing so of their own free will. But I don't think any of them see the big ring in their nose that Barnard and co. lead them around by.
The most reliable info that I got all day was that their new location will be in the state of Washington. I think that semi-rural Washington is in some ways a better environment for RRF. Washington is no stranger to off-center groups of all types, religious and survivalist with strong seperatist sentiments.
Some of them may be going back to Pennsylvania too.
Back to the narrative.....
After talking with the locals for a bit Mike came into the room and asked me to go outside and join him for a smoke. As the auctioneer was right outside the door I did not see any real harm in letting Mike follow his instructions and seperate me from the general public. At least the intelligent seeming auctioneer would be able to listen to Mike and I talk if he wished. And I already know that RRF is very, very careful to keep their most abusive methods and motives hidden from the public at large.
Mike refused to give me a straight answer when I asked him to remember the he!! they gave me while I worked for him at his butcher shop. He refused to admit that I was the one who sought him out to give him moral support when RRF was leading him to give up his youngest son for adoption, or the he!! they gave me for supporting his decision. He still thinks that the real reason his butcher shop was shut down was mad cow disease. He refuses to acknowledge the abusive things that we both know Barnard has done. He couldn't even look at me when I asked him if Dave K. is the man that V Barnard had spit on for falling asleep during one of his sharings.
I asked him if Barnard still has the fellowships so isolated from each other that they can't talk about these things. I said to mike," Mike, real people talk about these kind of things!"
In terms of how large this group is, I asked Mike "if they were still tossing around the number 152 like it was some kind of magic number or something? Or was it more like 130, or 120 now?"
I told him Barnard is a false prophet. I hope Mike hears my words some day. I hope the auctioneer was listening to my conversation with Mike too. Before I went in I ended my talk with Mike by telling him that he was covering too many specifics with vague generalities.
One more thing....Mike told me that RRF had a lot of love going on. He may have done this during our first conversation, before I went to the auction...er...I mean BEATING ROOM. I answered saying,"Are you kidding Mike? Ken P. moved Kelly and my son out of my house and told me that I was not welcome back until "this shameful situation was resolved". Yeah right Mike, I SURE FELT THE LOVE THEN." (very sarcastic tone then, on my part.)
After I left Mike outside I went into the auction room again and was sharing more of my RRF experience with folks. One man even mentioned a book by the name of "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" and asked me if I'd read it. I told him no, but I have talked with many people who have. (Thank you GSC)
All during this conversation Randy's wife and another woman who in times past had shared with me that she was trying to deliberately forget everything that happened in her life before Victor (I know, CRAZY, but I am not making that up.) came in and talked to the auctioneer a few times. The last time the quietly came in and talked to him he left them and politely asked me to leave. I turned to the man I was talking with and said while pointing at the two women,"See, those two just came in and asked the auctioneer to have me leave."
I wished the auctioneer good luck in the auction and said loud enough for anyone in the room to hear if they were listening, "They are kicking me out again, at least this time I'm leaving with the same family I had when I came."
Outside there was a old English sheep dog standing which I pet and looked over. The auctioneer had come outside with me and after petting the dog I turned to him and said, "Sometimes dogs are better at telling who are good people than people are."
On my way out to the parking lot Steve sat in his truck and refused to look at me as I walked by.
Brave of you, Jeff,but what were you trying to do? Reduce some of the interest so that the the price would be driven down and there wouldn't be so much to purchase another property? The locals already knew it was a bad place to be.
Sounds like the culties that you spoke to know in their hearts that what's going on is wrong but they don't know how to get out of it.
Maybe you should have made up some "business cards" with the GSC website address on. Given them to the folks you spoke to. As a splinter group, it's the other side of their story, too.
Brave of you, Jeff,but what were you trying to do? Reduce some of the interest so that the the price would be driven down and there wouldn't be so much to purchase another property? The locals already knew it was a bad place to be.
I never felt in any real danger to speak of. But remember the crushing cruelties of their control methods that I believe originated in TWI was a little painful, but in the end I considered it safe to consider what they may throw at me in terms of mind games and verbal abuse in order to be prepared Twinky.
In terms of your questioning of my motives I never really considered the possibility that you bring up. And when I read it my first reaction was a combination of "NO, that was not it" and "blech".
Since I said that the first thing I shared when I got into "The Beating Room" was that I knew how hard they worked at making the property as nice as it is while at the auction I really, really do not know why you would read my post and even raise that point.
I think that actions may lead to a reasonable consideration of motives in general, but pulling possible motives randomly out of thin air does not work so well, especially when I told folks how nice the property was.
Sounds like the culties that you spoke to know in their hearts that what's going on is wrong but they don't know how to get out of it.
I can hope they wish to get out, well several of them now must face that I am still around in spite of River Road Fellowship's attempt to mimic God's anger and wreck my life. I believe that Barnard will not like me being around to show folks that there is life after River Road fellowship.
I mentioned GSC while I was there and have in times past when I was in the area hoping that folks would learn about River Road fellowship's and Victor Barnard's roots in The Way International. If people wat to get out then IMO there may be more good hearted locals who may be willing to help than without any information at all.
Maybe you should have made up some "business cards" with the GSC website address on. Given them to the folks you spoke to. As a splinter group, it's the other side of their story, too.
Maybe I could, but not today anyway, and probably not anytime soon. But what the heck, it is a thought Twinky.
There two main conversations that I had with Mike. I am thankful that I got to talk to him because as I stated earlier, I think he is one of the men that has enough decency and toughness in him to stand up to Barnard if he chooses.
To set the stage for my recent talk with Mike let me digress.....
When he decided to keep his youngest son instead of giving him up for adoption as Barnard and co. desired he shared with me that day at the butcher shop that it was a hard decision for him to make and that he made it with a tremendous (IMO) amount of prayerful consideration. And when the first attempt to set up his youngest son with a good couple that were willing to take in his developmentally disabled child failed he shortly girded his loins (Biblical idiom) and changed his mind. I said,"I think you made a good decision Mike."
Barnard's brother-in-law was obviously angry with me and said in front of everyone with a scowl on his face that some among us would never, ever be welcome on the property again. The fact that he was looking directly at me while he said it made it plain to me who he was referring to, but as River Road Fellowship had long since grown accustom to such abusive and threatening cowards who hide behind protocol and the like I do not know how many of the men present even caught it. Such cowardly proclamations as that leave the abusers able to deny accountability for their words and enable them to publicly project the prospect of mental instability at anyone such as myself who are willing to hold them accountable for their words and actions.
But back to last Saturday's conversations with Mike.....
I have just a couple of observations and considerations.
The first is that their were two main conversations with Mike. The first one was right outside of the parking lot after I arrived and Steve was the only other one present. The second one started in the "beating room" but Mike asked me to go outside with him right after we started. I am not sure if Mike was directed to do that or just didn't want to have our conversation in front of everybody, maybe both. But outside the auctioneer was the only one within earshot. And no matter Mike's intentions were with that conversation I am sure that he knew the auctioneer was within earshot by the fact that Mike kept looking at him. It may be that Mike was trying to make me seem crazy in front of the auctioneer because in several cases he tried to deny or downplay things that he very well knew was the truth but I think may tend to embarrass River Road Fellowship in the eyes of the general public. No matter Mike's intentions my gut was to trust the auctioneer to listen to Mike and I if he chose and to make up his own mind.
Mike had a couple of conversation habits that I consider symptomatic of trying to converse with a committed member of River Road Fellowship.
The one he used the most is to respond to a point I made by saying,"I don't know what to say to that." In practise I believe it is a simple dodge of the point being made. And for a member of River Road Fellowship this condition of not knowing what to say is most often remedied by talking to leadership in order to be told what to say.
The second dodge was Mike saying,"I don't know where you get that from." IMO this is another simple dodge for a member of River Road Fellowship. It has an element of denial to it and may have been used by Mike for the sake of the auctioneer or to attempt to salve Mike's own conscience, maybe both IMO. But my response went the route of something like,"Mike, it was exactly what happened, that is where I got it from." More than once I recalled exactly what someone else said in order to back up what I said. Like when I told Mike that I remember Amy saying in front of everybody,"We believe you Victor" right after he told us that we would be attacked by the locals or the government.
Over the course of the last week or so I have heard a couple of reliable sources that said that Barnard has been doing things that are every bit as bad as the reports of Wierwille that I have heard here.
I have heard that more than one couple is headed for divorce because of it.
I have heard a few young adults that belong to the next generation after mine whose parents were in RRF that are just absolutely sickened by the things they know.
I have had one old friend tell me that all the things being said about Barnard are a lie, and to never call them again.
I talked to one woman who said because Barnard taught her the Word she will not say anything bad about him, even though her daughter is leaving the group. When she told me she loved Wierwille too I told her, "That's only because you don't know what he did to women!" But our conversation was cordial enough and we still had a decent goodbye.
And I've heard specifics that I just don't feel right sharing right now. But I am feeling more than a little perturbed.
And so far it seems to me that I have had a small sampling platter of the different reactions comon among Wayfers as the reports of TWI sexual abuse came out for many of you.
But every one of these people I know. That makes things much more intense.
Barnard portrayed me as the bad guy. I'm kind of wondering when people will realize that the things he said against me were just a bunch of lies. But it seems that for folks to hear that they will have to start realizing just how much Barnard pulled the wool over their eyes.
It's all just starting for real for me fellow Greasepotters.
Hey there Jeff. How be ye?? :) I remember once (back in the mid 1990's - - - I think it was around that time), I was at Victor's house when I was invited there by JAL (who called me "out of the blue") to let me know he was doing an "informational meeting" about CES there. It was (to say the least), a VERY interesting "teaching session", since JAL, Victor B. and another guy named Greg Pharis taught at that weekend meeting.
JAL was teaching about a bunch of stuff (highlighting the AOS film and the mistakes found therein. Greg Pharis was teaching on "Personal Prophecy", and Victor taught on how the church was really the bride of Christ, and not the Jewish folk like docvic taught. Talk about a cluster- f***- mishmash of teachings all in one weekend, and we were supposed to believe them all?? HA!
The only reason I showed up was because the Old Time Music group (The Wild Thyme String Band from here in Duluth Mn.) that I was picking guitar/ mandolin/ and fiddle for was doing a square dance nearby and I had the time on my hands to visit the "meeting", and was in the neighborhood. Add JAL's phone call (out of the blue) to that, and I decided to show up to see what was happening (those days). It was a cluster **** of a meeting because JAL didn't recognize Pharis' claims that Jesus is God (though he WAS trying to learn how to do "personal prophecy" from Greg while Greg totally "dissed" both JAL and Victor for their beliefs, while trying to promote his own, and Victor had that smug attitude of "You're in MY HOUSE, so what I say counts"! Too many egos, and all under one roof vying for the attention of those of us who happened to be in attendance. Maybe you were there too, I don't know.
JAL finally severed his association with Greg Pharis (so I heard in an email from JAL), because of Greg's insistence that Jesus is God even though he hung on to the personal prophecy thing. I'm thinking he (JAL) cut ties with Victor B. because of his insistence that the church is the "Bride of Christ". Greg cut ties with both Victor and JAL because he saw them as "heretics" (my word describing the situation) who wouldn't see things as he did, and Victor decided he was right, and all others were wrong. You Jeff, can tell me if I'm right or if I'm wrong since you were closer to the "moment" than I was. But that's my recollection from (about) 15 years ago and the River Road Fellowship.
Now - - - I've got a question - - - (if I may). You mentioned Mike. When I was a newbie on the computer (back in 2003 or 2004) and when I was on AOL I got an instant message from a guy named Mike, about PFAL and Minnesota. There was a phone number attached, and since I was gonna be up late that night anyway I decided to give it a call. Turned out it was from your area there in the Minneapolis region, and I ended up talking to the guy for a coupla hours or so about PfAL/ docvic/ teachings/ etc. He mentioned that he was up from 6 AM to midnight, so he could be there for "his people", and also described his home there as "the ranch", designed to look just like the "headquarters" over in New Knoxville, Ohio. He also told me how to get hold of 88 CD's of every one of docvic's teachings from someone in Colorado. I wasn't interested in the CD's of docvic, but we kept on talking anyway. He (when we got done with the phone call that night), said something about "Call me. Ask for Rev. Richter (I think that was the name), anytime".
I'm only asking this, because what I experienced many years ago sounds eerily familiar. Am wondering if I talked with one of the River Road Fellowship folks when I gave "Mike" a call that night in answer to that IM. I'm guessing I did. Maybe you don't know the Mike that is such a supporter of docvic, and the pfal class, and the "integrity of the word" written in the way magazines here at the GSC. Back when this site had a different format, private messages were much different than they are now. The GSC Mike and I talked a lot, and I passed on to him "Rev. Richter's" phone number. It was a match made in Heaven. The two of them couldn't agree more about "stuff".
Sorry for disrupting your thread here. Thought to mention a couple of things and ask a question, since you would be the one to answer best. :)
By 2003 or 2004 Barnard was busy establishing himself in River Road Fellowship as Wierwille's superior and not as a loyalist. So it seems very unlikely to me that the Mike you are refering to was either of the three Mikes that I can recall off the top of my head in River Road Fellowship.
Wierwille's superior....boy, talk about an insane goal. Now it looks to me that he is just as perverse as Wierwille was behind closed doors too.
But it does not surprise me at all to hear that these guys had a similar feel to you. <_<
And I probably was at that meeting in Rush City that you've described. That was back then when I didn't recognize how full of crapola they all were. At least now I have a better idea anyhow.
(edited for spelling, and a little content added too.)
I know next to nothing about the group, except that an old friend was way too involved with it, and asked me to help him (them ?) out financially about 10 years ago.I forget the exact year. At the time , my friend was still touting Wierwille as much as ever, and I wonder if this Barnard chap hadn't gone off the deep end yet.
From my perspective, Barnard carefully and deliberately built his influence over the group for many years. And in doing so he also deliberately broke down every single relationship, even familial, in order to be the center of attention and authority.
Soooo, IMO, it's just taken this long for what he really is to become evident. I think he's been off the deep end from before his days in TWI. The Corps just gave him the tools to manipulate people and dominate a small, very abusive religious organization.
That financial help your old friend was looking for may have been back when Barnard had everybody call everyone they knew to ask for money to save his camp. At my twig meeting he said,"If I don't get to keep my camp, you won't like life very much!"
I only asked one person who I knew had enough sense to turn us down anyway. By that time I knew he was bad and that I was fighting for my marriage and that fate of many of my friends. But I didn't understand as much as now. I probably would have been a teeny, tiny bit more vocal I think.
Yeah , I was asked to help keep the camp going, though it came in more of a personal plea. I had no interest in supporting any off shoot, or religious org of any kind, but I did have a history with my friend that included times when he was very generous , and giving when I had been in need.
I gave what I could based on that, though I knew it was going to keep him 'employed' at that facility. From what I've learned since then, I would have been doing him a favor by not doing so, and I would love to hear that he and his family have moved on from all that.
Yeah , I was asked to help keep the camp going, though it came in more of a personal plea. I had no interest in supporting any off shoot, or religious org of any kind, but I did have a history with my friend that included times when he was very generous , and giving when I had been in need.
I gave what I could based on that, though I knew it was going to keep him 'employed' at that facility. From what I've learned since then, I would have been doing him a favor by not doing so, and I would love to hear that he and his family have moved on from all that.
Just let me know who they are hiway29 and I'll let you know what I know.
If I don't know then someday I wouldn't mind hearing how they are doing too.
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hiway29
Jeff, would you happen to know if Mark Fr*nt*##k was connected to that group ?
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JeffSjo
Yes, Jean was used as an example of being one with Barnard in loyalty as her "True Man" as opposed to the "fleshy husband."
His oldest daughter was one of the ten maidens.
He thought to hamstring me while I was there for quite some time too.
(edited for grammar)
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JeffSjo
IMO the sooner that RRF and all of Barnard's words fall to the ground, the better for everyone who is/was involved.
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From everything that I have heard here at GSC the mental pressure and indoctrination was as thorough and as intense as anything that happened in TWI at the root locales among TWI staff.
Lives were twisted and broken across the board.
For anyone leaving RRF there is no telling how much help they may need to get on with their lives.
(edited for spelling)
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Shellon
Oh hell yes Amen
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JeffSjo
:wub: Thank you shellon.....
But as with TWI, I fear Barnard has done everything he can to try to manage this situation somehow. He is a very persistent bird.
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hiway29
Thanks for that information. I go pretty far back with the family I asked about, and I am sorry, but not shocked, to hear about it.
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JeffSjo
I am sorry to have to tell you what they have been doing, as of when I was kicked out a few years ago hiway29.
____________________________________________________
The thing about River Road Fellowship is that they have talked about going to South America in times past. And considering Barnard's foolish rantings about all the danger he is in more or less constantly he has already proved himself capable of moving everybody out of the country to escape the LIGHT. (LIGHT is my word for exposing him for what he really is.) And considering total control; over virtually every word that these poor people speak to each other I consider it POSSIBLE that they may be putting up a false front for the general public's consideration. When I was there this kind of false front for the public was as the food they ate in terms of their manner.
When RRF was discussing the possibility of us being in Brazil all I saw as possible consequences was our further isolation and our eventual destruction. JONESTOWN like events are IMO the most likely outcome of such an ill-considered adventure.
So I have learned even now to consider that these folks have been led into lying and hiding their intentions from everyone else on the outside. I will be watching at least.
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JeffSjo
PLEASE EXCUSE MY LATEST BOTCHED ATTEMPT AT EDITING.
POST #13 SHOULD BE HERE.
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Shellon
Jeff, you mostly know how I feel about this rassin frassin bunch of smellholes.
Especially as it pertains to your heart and what it did to your marriage and relationship with your boy.
What I am proudest of is your tenacity to confront their nasty, to deal with their ugly, to stand up against their evil. Since our stories are different in their losses and yet similiar in their strengths, I'm comfortable in sharing your pain and celebrating your victory over what they would have be your downfall.
Talk about 'in your face' ~!
:)
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JeffSjo
:wub:
Shellon.....
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JeffSjo
THE ONLY REASON THIS POST #13 IS HERE IS BECAUSE I BOTCHED MY ATTEMPT TO EDIT POST #10.
IN TERMS OF SEQUENCE PLEASE JUST PUT THIS POST WHERE POST #10 IS....SORRY.
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Twinky
Brave of you, Jeff,but what were you trying to do? Reduce some of the interest so that the the price would be driven down and there wouldn't be so much to purchase another property? The locals already knew it was a bad place to be.
Sounds like the culties that you spoke to know in their hearts that what's going on is wrong but they don't know how to get out of it.
Maybe you should have made up some "business cards" with the GSC website address on. Given them to the folks you spoke to. As a splinter group, it's the other side of their story, too.
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JeffSjo
I never felt in any real danger to speak of. But remember the crushing cruelties of their control methods that I believe originated in TWI was a little painful, but in the end I considered it safe to consider what they may throw at me in terms of mind games and verbal abuse in order to be prepared Twinky.
In terms of your questioning of my motives I never really considered the possibility that you bring up. And when I read it my first reaction was a combination of "NO, that was not it" and "blech".
Since I said that the first thing I shared when I got into "The Beating Room" was that I knew how hard they worked at making the property as nice as it is while at the auction I really, really do not know why you would read my post and even raise that point.
I think that actions may lead to a reasonable consideration of motives in general, but pulling possible motives randomly out of thin air does not work so well, especially when I told folks how nice the property was.
I can hope they wish to get out, well several of them now must face that I am still around in spite of River Road Fellowship's attempt to mimic God's anger and wreck my life. I believe that Barnard will not like me being around to show folks that there is life after River Road fellowship.
I mentioned GSC while I was there and have in times past when I was in the area hoping that folks would learn about River Road fellowship's and Victor Barnard's roots in The Way International. If people wat to get out then IMO there may be more good hearted locals who may be willing to help than without any information at all.
Maybe I could, but not today anyway, and probably not anytime soon. But what the heck, it is a thought Twinky.
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There two main conversations that I had with Mike. I am thankful that I got to talk to him because as I stated earlier, I think he is one of the men that has enough decency and toughness in him to stand up to Barnard if he chooses.
To set the stage for my recent talk with Mike let me digress.....
When he decided to keep his youngest son instead of giving him up for adoption as Barnard and co. desired he shared with me that day at the butcher shop that it was a hard decision for him to make and that he made it with a tremendous (IMO) amount of prayerful consideration. And when the first attempt to set up his youngest son with a good couple that were willing to take in his developmentally disabled child failed he shortly girded his loins (Biblical idiom) and changed his mind. I said,"I think you made a good decision Mike."
Barnard's brother-in-law was obviously angry with me and said in front of everyone with a scowl on his face that some among us would never, ever be welcome on the property again. The fact that he was looking directly at me while he said it made it plain to me who he was referring to, but as River Road Fellowship had long since grown accustom to such abusive and threatening cowards who hide behind protocol and the like I do not know how many of the men present even caught it. Such cowardly proclamations as that leave the abusers able to deny accountability for their words and enable them to publicly project the prospect of mental instability at anyone such as myself who are willing to hold them accountable for their words and actions.
But back to last Saturday's conversations with Mike.....
I have just a couple of observations and considerations.
The first is that their were two main conversations with Mike. The first one was right outside of the parking lot after I arrived and Steve was the only other one present. The second one started in the "beating room" but Mike asked me to go outside with him right after we started. I am not sure if Mike was directed to do that or just didn't want to have our conversation in front of everybody, maybe both. But outside the auctioneer was the only one within earshot. And no matter Mike's intentions were with that conversation I am sure that he knew the auctioneer was within earshot by the fact that Mike kept looking at him. It may be that Mike was trying to make me seem crazy in front of the auctioneer because in several cases he tried to deny or downplay things that he very well knew was the truth but I think may tend to embarrass River Road Fellowship in the eyes of the general public. No matter Mike's intentions my gut was to trust the auctioneer to listen to Mike and I if he chose and to make up his own mind.
Mike had a couple of conversation habits that I consider symptomatic of trying to converse with a committed member of River Road Fellowship.
The one he used the most is to respond to a point I made by saying,"I don't know what to say to that." In practise I believe it is a simple dodge of the point being made. And for a member of River Road Fellowship this condition of not knowing what to say is most often remedied by talking to leadership in order to be told what to say.
The second dodge was Mike saying,"I don't know where you get that from." IMO this is another simple dodge for a member of River Road Fellowship. It has an element of denial to it and may have been used by Mike for the sake of the auctioneer or to attempt to salve Mike's own conscience, maybe both IMO. But my response went the route of something like,"Mike, it was exactly what happened, that is where I got it from." More than once I recalled exactly what someone else said in order to back up what I said. Like when I told Mike that I remember Amy saying in front of everybody,"We believe you Victor" right after he told us that we would be attacked by the locals or the government.
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JeffSjo
Over the course of the last week or so I have heard a couple of reliable sources that said that Barnard has been doing things that are every bit as bad as the reports of Wierwille that I have heard here.
I have heard that more than one couple is headed for divorce because of it.
I have heard a few young adults that belong to the next generation after mine whose parents were in RRF that are just absolutely sickened by the things they know.
I have had one old friend tell me that all the things being said about Barnard are a lie, and to never call them again.
I talked to one woman who said because Barnard taught her the Word she will not say anything bad about him, even though her daughter is leaving the group. When she told me she loved Wierwille too I told her, "That's only because you don't know what he did to women!" But our conversation was cordial enough and we still had a decent goodbye.
And I've heard specifics that I just don't feel right sharing right now. But I am feeling more than a little perturbed.
And so far it seems to me that I have had a small sampling platter of the different reactions comon among Wayfers as the reports of TWI sexual abuse came out for many of you.
But every one of these people I know. That makes things much more intense.
Barnard portrayed me as the bad guy. I'm kind of wondering when people will realize that the things he said against me were just a bunch of lies. But it seems that for folks to hear that they will have to start realizing just how much Barnard pulled the wool over their eyes.
It's all just starting for real for me fellow Greasepotters.
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dmiller
Double post. Sorry!
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dmiller
Hey there Jeff. How be ye?? :) I remember once (back in the mid 1990's - - - I think it was around that time), I was at Victor's house when I was invited there by JAL (who called me "out of the blue") to let me know he was doing an "informational meeting" about CES there. It was (to say the least), a VERY interesting "teaching session", since JAL, Victor B. and another guy named Greg Pharis taught at that weekend meeting.
JAL was teaching about a bunch of stuff (highlighting the AOS film and the mistakes found therein. Greg Pharis was teaching on "Personal Prophecy", and Victor taught on how the church was really the bride of Christ, and not the Jewish folk like docvic taught. Talk about a cluster- f***- mishmash of teachings all in one weekend, and we were supposed to believe them all?? HA!
The only reason I showed up was because the Old Time Music group (The Wild Thyme String Band from here in Duluth Mn.) that I was picking guitar/ mandolin/ and fiddle for was doing a square dance nearby and I had the time on my hands to visit the "meeting", and was in the neighborhood. Add JAL's phone call (out of the blue) to that, and I decided to show up to see what was happening (those days). It was a cluster **** of a meeting because JAL didn't recognize Pharis' claims that Jesus is God (though he WAS trying to learn how to do "personal prophecy" from Greg while Greg totally "dissed" both JAL and Victor for their beliefs, while trying to promote his own, and Victor had that smug attitude of "You're in MY HOUSE, so what I say counts"! Too many egos, and all under one roof vying for the attention of those of us who happened to be in attendance. Maybe you were there too, I don't know.
JAL finally severed his association with Greg Pharis (so I heard in an email from JAL), because of Greg's insistence that Jesus is God even though he hung on to the personal prophecy thing. I'm thinking he (JAL) cut ties with Victor B. because of his insistence that the church is the "Bride of Christ". Greg cut ties with both Victor and JAL because he saw them as "heretics" (my word describing the situation) who wouldn't see things as he did, and Victor decided he was right, and all others were wrong. You Jeff, can tell me if I'm right or if I'm wrong since you were closer to the "moment" than I was. But that's my recollection from (about) 15 years ago and the River Road Fellowship.
Now - - - I've got a question - - - (if I may). You mentioned Mike. When I was a newbie on the computer (back in 2003 or 2004) and when I was on AOL I got an instant message from a guy named Mike, about PFAL and Minnesota. There was a phone number attached, and since I was gonna be up late that night anyway I decided to give it a call. Turned out it was from your area there in the Minneapolis region, and I ended up talking to the guy for a coupla hours or so about PfAL/ docvic/ teachings/ etc. He mentioned that he was up from 6 AM to midnight, so he could be there for "his people", and also described his home there as "the ranch", designed to look just like the "headquarters" over in New Knoxville, Ohio. He also told me how to get hold of 88 CD's of every one of docvic's teachings from someone in Colorado. I wasn't interested in the CD's of docvic, but we kept on talking anyway. He (when we got done with the phone call that night), said something about "Call me. Ask for Rev. Richter (I think that was the name), anytime".
I'm only asking this, because what I experienced many years ago sounds eerily familiar. Am wondering if I talked with one of the River Road Fellowship folks when I gave "Mike" a call that night in answer to that IM. I'm guessing I did. Maybe you don't know the Mike that is such a supporter of docvic, and the pfal class, and the "integrity of the word" written in the way magazines here at the GSC. Back when this site had a different format, private messages were much different than they are now. The GSC Mike and I talked a lot, and I passed on to him "Rev. Richter's" phone number. It was a match made in Heaven. The two of them couldn't agree more about "stuff".
Sorry for disrupting your thread here. Thought to mention a couple of things and ask a question, since you would be the one to answer best. :)
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JeffSjo
Dear Dave,
By 2003 or 2004 Barnard was busy establishing himself in River Road Fellowship as Wierwille's superior and not as a loyalist. So it seems very unlikely to me that the Mike you are refering to was either of the three Mikes that I can recall off the top of my head in River Road Fellowship.
Wierwille's superior....boy, talk about an insane goal.
Now it looks to me that he is just as perverse as Wierwille was behind closed doors too.
But it does not surprise me at all to hear that these guys had a similar feel to you. <_<
And I probably was at that meeting in Rush City that you've described. That was back then when I didn't recognize how full of crapola they all were. At least now I have a better idea anyhow.
(edited for spelling, and a little content added too.)
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hiway29
I know next to nothing about the group, except that an old friend was way too involved with it, and asked me to help him (them ?) out financially about 10 years ago.I forget the exact year. At the time , my friend was still touting Wierwille as much as ever, and I wonder if this Barnard chap hadn't gone off the deep end yet.
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JeffSjo
From my perspective, Barnard carefully and deliberately built his influence over the group for many years. And in doing so he also deliberately broke down every single relationship, even familial, in order to be the center of attention and authority.
Soooo, IMO, it's just taken this long for what he really is to become evident. I think he's been off the deep end from before his days in TWI. The Corps just gave him the tools to manipulate people and dominate a small, very abusive religious organization.
That financial help your old friend was looking for may have been back when Barnard had everybody call everyone they knew to ask for money to save his camp. At my twig meeting he said,"If I don't get to keep my camp, you won't like life very much!"
I only asked one person who I knew had enough sense to turn us down anyway. By that time I knew he was bad and that I was fighting for my marriage and that fate of many of my friends. But I didn't understand as much as now. I probably would have been a teeny, tiny bit more vocal I think.
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hiway29
Yeah , I was asked to help keep the camp going, though it came in more of a personal plea. I had no interest in supporting any off shoot, or religious org of any kind, but I did have a history with my friend that included times when he was very generous , and giving when I had been in need.
I gave what I could based on that, though I knew it was going to keep him 'employed' at that facility. From what I've learned since then, I would have been doing him a favor by not doing so, and I would love to hear that he and his family have moved on from all that.
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JeffSjo
Just let me know who they are hiway29 and I'll let you know what I know.
If I don't know then someday I wouldn't mind hearing how they are doing too.
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hiway29
You do know, Jeff, since you've referred to him in previous posts. His initials are MF, and what you told me didn't sound encouraging.
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